This is sharp work, John. I agree, Matthew practically screams “new Exodus” for anyone with Torah in their bones. From Herod as Pharaoh to the mountain sermons, the echoes aren’t subtle.
The part that intrigues me most is your closing question. Did Jesus see himself through Moses’ lens, or did the gospel writers retrofit the type? My hunch: both. A prophet on the margins will always reach for ancestral scripts, and a community preserving his memory will polish those parallels until they shine.
Either way, the typology works. Moses split the sea. Jesus split open the imagination. Both fed the hungry in the wilderness, both gave their faces to the fire, both called a people out of slavery in different kinds of chains.
Blessed be the ones who notice the rhymes across history and refuse to dismiss them as accidents.
Your write up is on point. However let us remember that Mark (as opposed to Mathew) originally models his epic myth on Yahweh (starts off with Prepare the way for Yahweh/LORD as in Isaiah 40:3). He also attributes Jesus to have numerous traits of Yahweh (I wrote about this on one of your earlier posts).
No one really talks about this but it is clear in the following passage:
“While Jesus was teaching in the temple, he said, “How can the scribes say that the Messiah is the son of David? David himself, by the Holy Spirit, declared, ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, until I put your enemies under your feet.” ’ “David himself calls him Lord, so how can he be his son?” And the large crowd was listening to him with delight.”
Here Mark is saying- How Can the Messiah be David’s son when he is also called LORD (YHWH)!
But the question is WHY does Mark portray Jesus as Yahweh? Did Yahweh ever say he would come down to earth as Messiah?! YES!
“Thus says the Lord: I will return to Zion and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem; Jerusalem shall be called the faithful city, and the mountain of the Lord of hosts shall be called the holy mountain. Thus says the Lord of hosts: I will save my people from the east country and from the west country, and I will bring them to live in Jerusalem. They shall be my people and I will be their God, in faithfulness and in righteousness.” the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, ‘Come, let us go to entreat the favor of the Lord and to seek the Lord of hosts; I myself am going.’ Many peoples and strong nations shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem and to entreat the favor of the Lord. Thus says the Lord of hosts: In those days ten men from nations of every language shall take hold of a Jew, grasping his garment and saying, ‘Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.’ ””
“Rejoice greatly, O daughter Zion! Shout aloud, O daughter Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you; triumphant and victorious is he, humble and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey. He will cut off the chariot from Ephraim and the war horse from Jerusalem; and the battle bow shall be cut off, and he shall command peace to the nations; his dominion shall be from sea to sea and from the River to the ends of the earth. Then the Lord will appear over them, and his arrow go forth like lightning; the Lord God will sound the trumpet and march forth in the whirlwinds of the south. On that day the Lord their God will save them, for they are the flock of his people, for like the jewels of a crown they shall shine on his land.”
“On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives, which lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the mount shall withdraw northward and the other half southward. And you shall flee by the valley of the Lord’s mountain, for the valley between the mountains shall reach to Azal, and you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of King Uzziah of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come and all the holy ones with him. And the Lord will become king over all the earth; on that day the Lord will be one and his name one. Then all who survive of the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Festival of Booths. If any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain upon them.”
So Mathew’s rehash of Marks Epic story has more “Moses” only to express that the incarnate Yahweh (Jesus means Yahweh the saviour) wishes to Redo or supersede the Torah- esp after the Temple has been destroyed.
But if Jesus is Yahweh, who is his “Father”?! It is The most high God (El Elyon.
“and he shouted at the top of his voice, “What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I adjure you by God, do not torment me.””
This is consistent with the philosophy of the Dead Sea scrolls which show Deuteronomy 32:8 as the Most High (El Elyon) dividing the nations and giving Yahweh his portion as Israel (Yahweh is Israel’s god and Israel belongs to no other beside him- consistent with the Sh’ma).
The earliest Christians expected Yahweh to come as king- explaining:
“The inscription of the charge against him read, “The King of the Jews.””
Hello PJK! Thanks for your engagement. I'm sorry I didn't have the time to address your lengthy response on my other post, but since a couple of the same points have come up here, I thought I might at least provide a comment on some of your points here:
1. I don't think that Mark's opening scriptural citation provides solid evidence that he is identifying Jesus *as* YHWH. This is because Second Temple Jews could apply YHWH language to God's eschatological agent (in this case, Jesus.) Alan Kirk, for example, writes that “[other] Jewish writers made similar moves: when they believed that their hero was the eschatological agent who was to lead God’s people into final salvation (and the world into final judgment), they might replace God as the subject of a biblical citation with this leader." (Alan Kirk, “Narrative Christology of a Suffering King,” in Mark’s Gospel: Four Views, ed. Anthony le Donne (Zondervan Academic, 2021), 142.)
2. I also don't think that the Davidsohnfrage provides compelling evidence that Jesus is being identified *as* YHWH. The citation you quote is: 'The LORD says to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool."' Only the first Lord is identified using the Tetragrammaton; the other figure is David's own 'Lord' (not YHWH), and it is that second 'Lord' who is being identified here with David's son, the Messiah.
1. Please could you clarify which "Jewish writer" made "similar moves" (?referring to their hero as YHWH)? And I assume you meant Daniel Kirk (not Alan Kirk)?
2. I agree with you- and I stand corrected.
However, even as your most recent interview with Kendal Davis also notes in the gospels (esp Mark) "that it is a particular literary strategy of drawing together the identity of Jesus and God through the narrative of the Gospel. Though both are distinct characters in the story, they are both the Lord of Israel".
But if Jesus is depicted as the Lord of Israel, and contemporary literature eg Dead Sea Scolls and LXX has YHWH/The Lord of Israel as the son of the Most High God (see Deuteronomy 32:8); and Philo has the second god/ son of God as " He that sees Israel"-
On Dreams (De Somniis 1.215-216)
“For the Logos is the bond of everything, holding al things together and binding all the parts and preventing them from being dissolved and separated… And even if there be not as yet anyone worthy to be called a son of God, let him labour earnestly to be adorned according to his first-born logos, the eldest of his angels as the great archangel of many names; for he is called the Authority, and the Name of God, and the Logos, and the Man after his image, and He that sees Israel”.
Then one must conclude almost naturally that the Gospels must have a similar philosophy, with the Transcendental God as the Father of Yahweh the Saviour (Jesus).
Finally, this only fulfils YHWH 's role as Messiah; what Zech 14 says-
And the Lord will become king over all the earth; on that day the Lord will be one and his name one. Then all who survive of the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Festival of Booths. If any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain upon them.”
Which is what Mark 14 is trying to convey:
The written notice of the charge against him read: The king of the jews.
Also in Zechariah 12:10, we have the mysterious and obscure passage depicting the suffering of Yahweh, followed by atonement (13:1).
12: 10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit[a] of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son"..
13: 1 “On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity.
This is sharp work, John. I agree, Matthew practically screams “new Exodus” for anyone with Torah in their bones. From Herod as Pharaoh to the mountain sermons, the echoes aren’t subtle.
The part that intrigues me most is your closing question. Did Jesus see himself through Moses’ lens, or did the gospel writers retrofit the type? My hunch: both. A prophet on the margins will always reach for ancestral scripts, and a community preserving his memory will polish those parallels until they shine.
Either way, the typology works. Moses split the sea. Jesus split open the imagination. Both fed the hungry in the wilderness, both gave their faces to the fire, both called a people out of slavery in different kinds of chains.
Blessed be the ones who notice the rhymes across history and refuse to dismiss them as accidents.
Your write up is on point. However let us remember that Mark (as opposed to Mathew) originally models his epic myth on Yahweh (starts off with Prepare the way for Yahweh/LORD as in Isaiah 40:3). He also attributes Jesus to have numerous traits of Yahweh (I wrote about this on one of your earlier posts).
No one really talks about this but it is clear in the following passage:
“While Jesus was teaching in the temple, he said, “How can the scribes say that the Messiah is the son of David? David himself, by the Holy Spirit, declared, ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, until I put your enemies under your feet.” ’ “David himself calls him Lord, so how can he be his son?” And the large crowd was listening to him with delight.”
Mark 12:35-37 NRSVUE
https://bible.com/bible/3523/mrk.12.35-37.NRSVUE
Look at Psalm 110:
“The LORD says to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool.”
Psalms 110:1 NRSVUE
https://bible.com/bible/3523/psa.110.1.NRSVUE
Here Mark is saying- How Can the Messiah be David’s son when he is also called LORD (YHWH)!
But the question is WHY does Mark portray Jesus as Yahweh? Did Yahweh ever say he would come down to earth as Messiah?! YES!
“Thus says the Lord: I will return to Zion and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem; Jerusalem shall be called the faithful city, and the mountain of the Lord of hosts shall be called the holy mountain. Thus says the Lord of hosts: I will save my people from the east country and from the west country, and I will bring them to live in Jerusalem. They shall be my people and I will be their God, in faithfulness and in righteousness.” the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, ‘Come, let us go to entreat the favor of the Lord and to seek the Lord of hosts; I myself am going.’ Many peoples and strong nations shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem and to entreat the favor of the Lord. Thus says the Lord of hosts: In those days ten men from nations of every language shall take hold of a Jew, grasping his garment and saying, ‘Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.’ ””
Zechariah 8:3, 7-8, 21-23 NRSVUE
https://bible.com/bible/3523/zec.8.3-23.NRSVUE
“Rejoice greatly, O daughter Zion! Shout aloud, O daughter Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you; triumphant and victorious is he, humble and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey. He will cut off the chariot from Ephraim and the war horse from Jerusalem; and the battle bow shall be cut off, and he shall command peace to the nations; his dominion shall be from sea to sea and from the River to the ends of the earth. Then the Lord will appear over them, and his arrow go forth like lightning; the Lord God will sound the trumpet and march forth in the whirlwinds of the south. On that day the Lord their God will save them, for they are the flock of his people, for like the jewels of a crown they shall shine on his land.”
Zechariah 9:9-10, 14, 16 NRSVUE
https://bible.com/bible/3523/zec.9.9-16.NRSVUE
“On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives, which lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the mount shall withdraw northward and the other half southward. And you shall flee by the valley of the Lord’s mountain, for the valley between the mountains shall reach to Azal, and you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of King Uzziah of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come and all the holy ones with him. And the Lord will become king over all the earth; on that day the Lord will be one and his name one. Then all who survive of the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Festival of Booths. If any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain upon them.”
Zechariah 14:4-5, 9, 16-17 NRSVUE
https://bible.com/bible/3523/zec.14.4-17.NRSVUE
So Mathew’s rehash of Marks Epic story has more “Moses” only to express that the incarnate Yahweh (Jesus means Yahweh the saviour) wishes to Redo or supersede the Torah- esp after the Temple has been destroyed.
But if Jesus is Yahweh, who is his “Father”?! It is The most high God (El Elyon.
“and he shouted at the top of his voice, “What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I adjure you by God, do not torment me.””
Mark 5:7 NRSVUE
https://bible.com/bible/3523/mrk.5.7.NRSVUE
This is consistent with the philosophy of the Dead Sea scrolls which show Deuteronomy 32:8 as the Most High (El Elyon) dividing the nations and giving Yahweh his portion as Israel (Yahweh is Israel’s god and Israel belongs to no other beside him- consistent with the Sh’ma).
The earliest Christians expected Yahweh to come as king- explaining:
“The inscription of the charge against him read, “The King of the Jews.””
Mark 15:26 NRSVUE
https://bible.com/bible/3523/mrk.15.26.NRSVUE
This is also consistent with Philo and Paul- I can give examples if interested
Hello PJK! Thanks for your engagement. I'm sorry I didn't have the time to address your lengthy response on my other post, but since a couple of the same points have come up here, I thought I might at least provide a comment on some of your points here:
1. I don't think that Mark's opening scriptural citation provides solid evidence that he is identifying Jesus *as* YHWH. This is because Second Temple Jews could apply YHWH language to God's eschatological agent (in this case, Jesus.) Alan Kirk, for example, writes that “[other] Jewish writers made similar moves: when they believed that their hero was the eschatological agent who was to lead God’s people into final salvation (and the world into final judgment), they might replace God as the subject of a biblical citation with this leader." (Alan Kirk, “Narrative Christology of a Suffering King,” in Mark’s Gospel: Four Views, ed. Anthony le Donne (Zondervan Academic, 2021), 142.)
2. I also don't think that the Davidsohnfrage provides compelling evidence that Jesus is being identified *as* YHWH. The citation you quote is: 'The LORD says to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool."' Only the first Lord is identified using the Tetragrammaton; the other figure is David's own 'Lord' (not YHWH), and it is that second 'Lord' who is being identified here with David's son, the Messiah.
Hi John! Thank you kindly for your reply.
1. Please could you clarify which "Jewish writer" made "similar moves" (?referring to their hero as YHWH)? And I assume you meant Daniel Kirk (not Alan Kirk)?
2. I agree with you- and I stand corrected.
However, even as your most recent interview with Kendal Davis also notes in the gospels (esp Mark) "that it is a particular literary strategy of drawing together the identity of Jesus and God through the narrative of the Gospel. Though both are distinct characters in the story, they are both the Lord of Israel".
But if Jesus is depicted as the Lord of Israel, and contemporary literature eg Dead Sea Scolls and LXX has YHWH/The Lord of Israel as the son of the Most High God (see Deuteronomy 32:8); and Philo has the second god/ son of God as " He that sees Israel"-
On Dreams (De Somniis 1.215-216)
“For the Logos is the bond of everything, holding al things together and binding all the parts and preventing them from being dissolved and separated… And even if there be not as yet anyone worthy to be called a son of God, let him labour earnestly to be adorned according to his first-born logos, the eldest of his angels as the great archangel of many names; for he is called the Authority, and the Name of God, and the Logos, and the Man after his image, and He that sees Israel”.
Then one must conclude almost naturally that the Gospels must have a similar philosophy, with the Transcendental God as the Father of Yahweh the Saviour (Jesus).
Finally, this only fulfils YHWH 's role as Messiah; what Zech 14 says-
And the Lord will become king over all the earth; on that day the Lord will be one and his name one. Then all who survive of the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Festival of Booths. If any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain upon them.”
Which is what Mark 14 is trying to convey:
The written notice of the charge against him read: The king of the jews.
Also in Zechariah 12:10, we have the mysterious and obscure passage depicting the suffering of Yahweh, followed by atonement (13:1).
12: 10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit[a] of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son"..
13: 1 “On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity.